|
Post by agustine on Mar 15, 2007 20:51:57 GMT -5
To all..... With respect to your comment "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4). At the outset, I would be inclined to treat your objections in seriatim, with the intention not of merely effecting a boldface refutation but with the underlying intention of edifying the saints. Accordingly, it’s interesting that you would invoke the Shem’a in order to substantiate your position. However, the oneness to which the Shem’a alludes is not the monadic concept that you have explicitly endorsed. The Hebrew word for "one" found in the Shem’a is "Echad". The clear import of the general use of the word “Echad” within scripture denotes unity in diversity. For example, consider Exodus 26:6 whereby the “mishkan” or tabernacle is to be composed of various parts culminating in one "Echad" “mishkan”. Also see Ezek. 37:19, whereby it is declared "and THEY shall be one "Echad" stick in my hand." Conversely, the Hebrew word "Yachid" clearly means oneness in the monadic and also the unique sense. Within the B'rit Chadashah, which means New Covenant as it is used by Messianic Jews to describe the New Testament, the Lord Jesus is described in John 3:15 as the “Ben Yachid” or the one and only Son of God. The idea of monadic oneness coupled with uniqueness is manifest. Now, it is true that the word “trinity” never appears in scripture. Interestingly enough, the word “monotheism” never appears in either testament. Yet, who with even a rudimentary understanding of scripture would ever suggest that the testaments do not explicitly affirm monotheism. Moreover, although I am a non-denominational Christian, theologically I am a Calvinist, and as a Calvinist I affirm monotheism as well as Trinitarianism; insofar as I recognize that Trinitarian Christianity is most agreeable with monotheism. The trinity, a term denoting tri-unity, is not derived from natural revelation but is instead wholly the product of special revelation, and as such is expressed propositionally in scripture. Most theologians recognize that we cannot completely comprehend the tri-unity of God, yet we can apprehend it within scripture. Proceeding now to my most brief disputation:
My first objection - and because of time constraints the only objection I shall explain at this juncture - to your thesis is that you blur the distinction between essence and subsistence. No Trinitarian would dispute the most fundamental fact of God’s nature as revealed in scripture: that He is one in His essence. For example, the Shem’a, supra, contained within Deut. 6:4; also see Isaiah 44:6, 8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.” The very word “God” on its face implies a distinction from that which is spoken of relative to all things. Ask yourself this question: on what basis do we distinguish between the infinite and the finite, the necessary and the contingent? The answer should be readily apparent, on the basis of the nature or essence of the thing that is the very object of our inquiry. In speaking of persons however, the fact that there is a distinction of persons or centers of consciousness within the unity of God does not provide any grounds for asserting a difference of essence. This is your principal error. Where it is asserted in scripture that Christ is to be another from the Father, or God, does not affirm that He is not a partaker of the same nature. For example, John 1:1, “En arxh ho logov, kai ho logov prov ton qeon, kai qeov ho logov.” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Within the text of the passage the Spirit distinguishes the Word from God in the first instance by the use of the term “with,” and then identifies the Word as God. Interestingly, the Spirit then moves the Apostle John to use the Greek word “Pros” for “with.” Why? Because the word “Pros” is most agreeable to the concept of relationship, in the sense of being “face-to-face” instead of other words denoting the idea of “with-ness” such as “meta” meaning “along side of” or “sun” {pronounced “soon”} meaning “among a group”. How then can something be distinguished from another and yet be identified as the very thing from which it is being distinguished? Only if there is a diversity of persons and a unity of essence.
For now my friends, God Bless
Agustine
|
|
|
Post by Thee BOB JAMES on Mar 20, 2007 21:09:43 GMT -5
Hello. I am officially entering this blog. I read your email on James White's website, where he blasted you, and did a fine job at that too. Yes please show where he got blasted, or is this in your own mind?I think that the trinity is God-breathed and true. If God breathed, then why not God givin to his people, the Christian church in plain discussion and speech?
It is not in the bible, rather, the word does not exist, but if you read the bible, you can see where God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one. Where is the word? You say nowhere in scripture and speak truth, you say though it is because "GOD" "JESUS CHRIST" AND "HOLY SPIRIT" are one. I note the errant choice of words thus proving that Jesus is not really [thee] God, but something other than God, since a person/being is giving the title God and Jesus and Holy Spirit are not! You have what we call and what in the first century Praxeas and monarchians called Preaching two and three gods. We believe in one God , Jesus! We see no teaching from anyone in scripture "teaching" three seperate and distinct persons.They have to be because God says all over the place in the Old Testament that He is one, there is no other God over Him. Ah by taking the plain simple truth, then all of a sudden it is not ONE! as God, but God is three. I just listened to Robert Sabin dealing with the 12 Trinitarian roadblocks and he stated and I concur that in all of the Bible, God is spoken of as One, the Holy One and not one time as a Holy Three as you folks seem to state over and over without any Biblical proof of such as to this being persons/beings. How did God miss stating to us by any N.T. writer that God was a a Holy Three and all O.T. verses are vacant of such ideas as well. DID GOD LIE? WAS HE HIDING WHAT HE REALLY WAS FOR 4000 YEARS?, I don't believe so, nor can I find a proof of that "God breathed trinity"But then in John Jesus refers to Himself as "the great I AM". He was claiming to be God, because in the next verse the people around Him said they wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God! Then the Holy Spirit. Duh. There is your one God!, Jesus is that God, he always was, before his incarnation as the Son of God, the man Christ. Jesus was what as God had always been and is today---SPIRIT. Jesus spoke in proverbs as a man, he didn't say I am God, but he made that statement "I AM", that is the "one" God, there is not a couple of beings comprising a plural godhead. This Trinity doctrine is 100% biblical, true and right and to not believe it is just plain stupidity and the person not believing in it is unfortunately destined for hell. we believe you are as well destined for hell for being in error and against the one true God, Jesus. Course you have to use a name calling attack, which doesn't bother me, but shows you don't have the scriptual support, or the Historical support for what you state is true, but cannot or never will prove is such. You need to find three persons or persons if not the word Trinity as proof , how about showing us such unbiblical terms such as GOD THE SON OR GOD THE HOLY GHOST, eternal son, first person, second person, third person? No I don't think you can by a flip of the wrist say abra cadabra and find such. IT AIN'T IN OUR BOOK!~, it may be in a creed book or prayer book or some post Apostolic writing that you can run to, but not the BOOK. To not believe in the Trinity takes away from Jesus' deity and Jesus explicity says that we must believe in Him to go to heaven. No it doesn't, not to us, maybe to a Jehovah Witness or Mormon, Christian Scientist, Unitarian Universalist, Socinian, Arian, BUT NOT US! JESUS IS OUR GOD, FULLY ALL OF WHAT GOD IS, there is no other, He is all!, Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. WE BELIEVE IN HIM AS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY AS REV. 4:8 states.One other thing, there are many things you probably believe that are not "explicitly" stated in the bible. How do you explain those things??? We don't worship those other things whatever they may be, we believe In Jesus our Lord and He alone. You may want to be more specific, but as stated, we don't worship "things", just God.AONE
|
|
|
Post by Thee BOB JAMES on Mar 20, 2007 23:59:47 GMT -5
To all..... With respect to your comment "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, i bob james wrote the colorized parts... The Word of the God called the Trinity, IS NOT IN THE BIBLE, LETS MAKE THAT PERFECTLY CLEAR AND POST IT IN LARGE CAPS. " Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4). Does One ever mean a real one somewhere in the New or Old Test., would be nice to know from you people where it does mean one. Why is it the Jews believed this was a place where one meant a sole numeric cardinal one. At the outset, I would be inclined to treat your objections in seriatim, with the intention not of merely effecting a boldface refutation but with the underlying intention of edifying the saints. We wish you would, it would help explain what and where you come up with such extrabiblical ideas.
Now we take a look at what you have to say about the Shema. Accordingly, it’s interesting that you would invoke the Shem’a in order to substantiate your position. We shall note your words carefully and show where they lead you into the abyss. However, the oneness to which the Shem’a alludes is not the monadic concept that you have explicitly endorsed. The Hebrew word for "one" found in the Shem’a is "Echad". Pay close attention The clear import of the GENERAL use of the word “Echad” within scripture denotes unity in diversity. Now we see a blatant as peice of information from our writer here as can be found, he states above that the GENERAL useis to denote "unity in diversity", I'll call him out on this and state, the the GENERAL useis a sole single numeral one and not as he states. The word ECHAD occurs 960 times, of these 943 it was used as the word "one", of thos 943 times, 901 times was a sole numeric character. SO EXPLAIN TO US , HOW IS THAT THE GENERAL use, right now is sounding real susspect as to you making it up from reading some Trinity authors false idealogy. 901 TO 42 ! THAT IS LESS THAN 5% OF THE TIME. He is wrong, so how do we trust him on the rest he says?? For example, consider Exodus 26:6 whereby the “mishkan” or tabernacle is to be composed of various parts culminating in one "Echad" “mishkan”. Also see Ezek. 37:19, whereby it is declared "and THEY shall be one "Echad" stick in my hand." Conversely, the Hebrew word "Yachid" clearly means oneness in the monadic and also the unique sense. Yachid does only mean a sole one, echad as well in most all cases means a sole one, despite our friend trying to conjure up a different idea to support his weak claim. Oh yeah he was trying to convey a "only" usage of echad to support him, but he failed, for the Hebrew conveys no such thing. Look at his evidence, shakey and misleading , he quotes what supports some plurality, but doesn't give one of the more numerous verses supporting ECHAD being a singular one. THAT IS DISHONESTY AND SOMETHING WE NOW HAVE THIS FELLOW ON.Within the B'rit Chadashah, which means New Covenant as it is used by Messianic Jews to describe the New Testament, the Lord Jesus is described in John 3:15 as the “Ben Yachid” or the one and only Son of God. This in no way helps our poor fellow out. We are dealing with echad, but this is still a attempt by him trying to say that yachid had to be used along with God and echad could not be and it be a singular one. Here is what you do, go and ask a Jew or read their works and see how they see it, they deny that echad means a plural one for God. OOOPS YEAH THE KABBALIST DOES AMONGST SOME JEWS. Now, it is true that the word “trinity” never appears in scripture. THANK YOU, WE NOW SEE YOU WORSHIP A FOREIGN GOD TO THE BIBLE. A false named deity that you and your fellows conjured up.Interestingly enough, the word “monotheism” never appears in either testament. AH! We don't worship a God called monotheism, you replaced the name of God, Jesus with a false name. I say that God is monotheistic because the scriptures declare only he is ONE.Old Testament Bible Texts referring to: One Lord, Holy One, Mighty One, Strong One, Lofty One, etc.
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
Isa 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
Isa 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.
Isa 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Isa 37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Isa 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Jer 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.
Jer 51:5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.
Ezek 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Hab 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
New Testament texts using "One" when referring to GOD Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Matt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
1 Cor 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Yet, who with even a rudimentary understanding of scripture would ever suggest that the testaments do not explicitly affirm monotheism. YET who would declare God to be called a name, when the Bible is totally mum about such? Isn't that being a bit of a egotist to call God soemthing, not once you can find in scripture as HIS NAME? Moreover, although I am a non-denominational Christian, theologically I am a Calvinist, and as a Calvinist I affirm monotheism as well as Trinitarianism; We consider you by your original roots around here a Roman Catholic daughter a harlot of Rome and the false trinity gentile paganist church. Call yourself a seperate name, know what we do know about your antichrist church. Trinitarianism, does not teach any form of monotheism, they deny it and reject the truth of the real MONOTHEISM, MONARCHIANISM. insofar as I recognize that Trinitarian Christianity is most agreeable with monotheism. The trinity, a term denoting tri-unity ANOTHER FALSE TERM FOR GOD WITH NO PROOF!, is not derived from natural revelation but is instead wholly the product of special revelation, Yet when we received this truth by the word and men stated they received it in the 20th century they were laughed to scorn for doing so and you though can call out that you folks receive what the bible states nothing of and youa dmit is not found in SCRIPTURE---THE TRINTIY! Yes I realize you say there is one and you believe in it, but not a shred of proof that God was ever in the O.T. called such, never in the first 2 centuries called such. Tertullian came around 210 a.d. and stated such and he was a ex-communicated subordinationist{THAT YOUR MAN?}.
and as such is expressed propositionally in scripture. Most theologians recognize that we cannot completely comprehend the tri-unity of God, yet we can apprehend it within scripture. Proceeding now to my most brief disputation: Yes then conjure up the idea that it is 'A MYSTERY' and that gives us a real sense of security that you really know what you are talking about. READ 1 TIM.3:16, I think you can see a answer to your mystery.My first objection - and because of time constraints the only objection I shall explain at this juncture - to your thesis is that you blur the distinction between essence and subsistence. No actually it is we hold to a real one, Jesus and you to a false three. Jesus is God. There is not sharing of a godhead of three persons, beings, individuals, entities. Keep believing such and you shall go to the same place Calvin did and he is not enjoying the flames of fire for his false doctrines, murder and hate. No Trinitarian would dispute the most fundamental fact of God’s nature as revealed in scripture: that He is one in His essence. For example, the Shem’a, supra, contained within Deut. 6:4; also see Isaiah 44:6, 8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; THE VERY TITLES THAT JESUS POSSESSES, that means if you believe in a trinity of three making up a godhead, then you have to have more than one FIRST AND LAST Rev. 22:13 There is only ONE!!!!!!! such person, Jesus is that one and you deny that. In speaking of persons however, the fact that there is a distinction of persons or centers of consciousness within the unity of God does not provide any grounds for asserting a difference of essence. This is your principal error. HOGWASH!There is disintinction in the offices / modes/ ways of expression of Jesus, but not in seperate or distinct persons and he is just one of them thus either one of three god or 1/3rd of God. Where it is asserted in scripture that Christ is to be another from the Father, or God, does not affirm that He is not a partaker of the same nature. Humanity of Jesus Christ VERSUS Deity of Jesus as Spirit. For example, John 1:1, “En arxh ho logov, kai ho logov prov ton qeon, kai qeov ho logov.” “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Within the text of the passage the Spirit distinguishes the Word from God in the first instance by the use of the term “with,” and then identifies the Word as God. Notice what our trinity friend must do, he must pick and choose the idea that "God" in the first part of the verse is who he inserts as this God (God being Theos) and in some ftf position with the Word {or soon to be his second God personage}. Now he must insert which of the three god persons is that first deity called THEOS [and never does Theos represent anything but the entirety of God]. He must then explain that the WORD is the second god, because he merely assumes there must be such. Poor third person is either left out or is that first one called God in the verse, which is it agustine? It is total guesswork and not very good scholrship. Interestingly, the Spirit then moves the Apostle John to use the Greek word “Pros” for “with.” Why? Because the word “Pros” is most agreeable to the concept of relationship, in the sense of being “face-to-face” instead of other words denoting the idea of “with-ness” such as “meta” meaning “along side of” or “sun” {pronounced “soon”} meaning “among a group”. How then can something be distinguished from another and yet be identified as the very thing from which it is being distinguished? Only if there is a diversity of persons and a unity of essence. ACTUALLY IT WAS A CHOICE BY THE TRANSLATORS AND A HORRIBLE ONE, SINCE IN NO OTHER PLACE WAS "pros ton theon" translated 'with' in the scriptures! In three other occurences in the New Test. the translation is in things pertaining to God HEB. 2:17, 5:1, ROM. 15:17
Now what my agustine friend needed for that to be "with" was "para ton theon"why would someone change the correct translation and usage, to what they wanted to insert into the passage? BECAUSE IT IS A BOLD FACE LIE AND THEY NEEDED TO PROP UP THE TRINITY, THREE PERSON IDEA. It makes no sense! Trinitarians must change what they say God is and that is he is a TRINITY and then force a diferent meaning into the context by saying that God is really whomever and whenever they choose him to be less than fully God and say as in example that God in John 1:1 is in the first place GOD THE FATHER and in the second GOD THE SON or some other term for less than God. Try explaining that fancy agustine, others could not and others dared not and left and TERRY COULD AND WILL I AM SURE ATTEST TO THAT.AONE aka BOB JAMES Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal Christian of the modalist monarchian faith from the Bible.
For now my friends, God Bless
Agustine wrote the black part in most of the above.
|
|