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Post by kjammer on Nov 10, 2007 10:34:24 GMT -5
Question 2.
Why is it few of all those who believe in tongues recieve tongues in AOG and COG churches and other trinity pentecostal churches?
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Post by kjammer on Nov 10, 2007 10:40:39 GMT -5
Question 3.
God is bringing out not just 1 or 2 from trinity churches but entire congregations and even organizations in the mission fields. How is it that they are getting the same tongues as us and leaving trinity churches. We preach the same tongues and get it some 85%-90% in our churches compared to under 20% in trinitarian pentecostal churches and less than 1% in other daughter of Rome churches.
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Post by kjammer on Nov 10, 2007 10:50:18 GMT -5
Question 4.
If you believe there is only the gift of tongues and no such thing as evidence of tongues then where is the interpretation when they spoke in tongues in the book of acts? What language was Pauls tongues of angels? Is that language dead and God couldnt it around today or is it like Paul said, Tongues of angels?
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Post by kjammer on Nov 10, 2007 10:57:08 GMT -5
Question 5.
A) What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the Jews? Tongues or no tongues.
B) What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the Samaritans? Tongues or no tongues.
C)What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the gentiles? Tongues or no tongues.
D) What was your initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (If you have it)? Tongues or no tongues.
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 11, 2007 9:43:21 GMT -5
Question 1. Amonst trinitarian churches there is so many differences on doctrinal teaching of tongues. Some believe it and amongst many denominational churches few believe in tongues at all. Some say that one can get it today, some say it is gibberish and others say it is of the devil. Who amongst all you false teachers are right? This question is impossible to answer as it is written. My friend Kyle has assumed that all Trinitarians are false teachers. Which, of course, he cannot prove. He just ascerts it. I will answer the question as if were asked as follows: Among Orthodox church groups, who holds the most accurate view of Tongues? My answer: Due to the pride of men, there is a diverse view on Tongues. The three popular views are 1) They ended early in Church history 2) They have floated in and out of Church history when there was a move of the Holy Spirit 3) Tongues have always existed since Pentecost, but they have been witnessed and have been granted only as needed. I hold to number 3. Since most denominations don't hold to a litmus test regarding Tongues, I cannot identify teacher by teacher who holds to which view. Generally speaking, most Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, and Presbytrians probably hold to number 1. Our Charismatic and Pentecostal friends hold to number 2. Those who understand that there is no evidence that says Tongues ever ended hold to number 3. __________________
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 11, 2007 9:56:28 GMT -5
Question 2. Why is it few of all those who believe in tongues recieve tongues in AOG and COG churches and other trinity pentecostal churches? This question assumes that few speak in a Tongue in AOG and COG churches who believe in it. Having been involved in both Word Faith and AOG, I can say without hesitation that most speak in what they think are Tongues. No different that Oneness churches, these people were looking for an experience based on what someone else told them was true. You see, it's the experience that they are looking for not the Holy Spirit.
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 11, 2007 17:32:48 GMT -5
Question 3. God is bringing out not just 1 or 2 from trinity churches but entire congregations and even organizations in the mission fields. How is it that they are getting the same tongues as us and leaving trinity churches. We preach the same tongues and get it some 85%-90% in our churches compared to under 20% in trinitarian pentecostal churches and less than 1% in other daughter of Rome churches. There is no difference in the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic Tongues and the Oneness Tongues. So, if someone leaves a Trinitarian church and goes to a Oneness church, the hearer will hear the same type of two-syllable gibberish. Error has no boundaries whether it is a Trinitarian church or a Oneness Church. As for those leaving Trinitarian Churches and going to Oneness churches, don't pat yourself on the back too much. The Mormons take the equivalent of a SBC Church from the SBC per month. There is also a huge number of people heading back to Rome. So to think that your movement is special, it isn't. The opposite could also be said, the number of those coming out of these movements and heading towards a Protestant Style, Trinitarian church is also large.
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 11, 2007 17:50:45 GMT -5
Question 5. A) What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the Jews? Tongues or no tongues. B) What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the Samaritans? Tongues or no tongues. C)What was the initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost for the gentiles? Tongues or no tongues. D) What was your initial sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (If you have it)? Tongues or no tongues. The initial sign of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost recorded in scripture for each of the groups goes as follows: Jews - Tongues [Known Languages] (Disciples) and No Tongues (The 5,000, Lydia) Samaritans - Tongues [Known Languages] Gentiles - Tongues [Known Languages] and No Tongues (The Ethiopian Eunich) Me - No Tongues, Fake Tongues [Like everyone elses], and then No Tongues [with Repentence]
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 12, 2007 0:10:14 GMT -5
Question 4. If you believe there is only the gift of tongues and no such thing as evidence of tongues then where is the interpretation when they spoke in tongues in the book of acts? What language was Pauls tongues of angels? Is that language dead and God couldnt it around today or is it like Paul said, Tongues of angels? KJammer Question: If you believe there is only the gift of tongues and no such thing as evidence of tongues then where is the interpretation when they spoke in tongues in the book of acts? YP Response: The hearers in Acts 2 said that “Each of us hears them in our own language.” They did not need an interpreter. KJammer Question: What language was Pauls tongues of angels? Is that language dead and God couldnt keep it around today or is it like Paul said, Tongues of angels? YP Response: There are no Angelic Tongues. Each recorded instance of Angels conversing in the scriptures was heard in a known language. Secondly, Paul was being hypothetical. Note the context: 1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. KJV To further prove my point, the Holy Ghost does not mention any “Angelic” Tongues in Corinth in Acts 18. The final nail in the “Angelic” Tongues idea comes when the Holy Ghost doesn’t mention them in Acts 19 either. 1Corinthians 13 is obviously about love. The focus is not Tongues.
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Post by yodasprodigy on Nov 12, 2007 8:34:20 GMT -5
Summary and Conclusion:
I would like to first thank Kyle Jammer for having this debate. As usual, when I debate someone of a different faith, I get to learn so much more about the Word of God.
I believe that I have clearly proven that the Tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians are the same. My friend Kyle missed the whole point of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians. Paul saw their abuse of Tongues and had to set some limitations on its use in a Service. He limited it to three times and that there had to be an interpreter present. Why an interpreter, because no one else would be edified.
The gift of Tongues has also always been a known language, yet it was not known to the person speaking the Tongue.
The gift of Tongues was also a judgment upon Israel. It was prophesied that they would be over run by those of a foreign tongue if they did not serve God properly. Of course, their history is riddled with spiritual adultery. Therefore, they were over run by numerous peoples of many languages. The events that included Tongues were the final judgment of this kind. That judgment was that the Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans would all be one people of God. It was no longer just the Jews. The Gospel would now be taken to the world.
The gift of Tongues is clearly not required to prove one’s relationship with Christ. In the book of Acts, very few people had the gift. The Book of Acts shows numerous conversions that did not include the Gift of Tongues. “The Ethiopian eunuch”, Lydia, Saul’s conversion doesn’t mention Tongues. The conversion of the 5,000 mentions no gift of Tongues either.
I would like to point out that my opponent chose not or could not respond to my three questions. Each answer had no scripture, no Greek, or no Historical data to prove his point. He just asserted that he was correct and that I would not believe his answers. This is intellectual suicide when it comes to a debate. The obvious reason for his responses is that there are no Oneness Greek Scholars, history is not on the side of the Oneness community, and they have chosen an Eclectic hermeneutical method to interpret scripture.
I chose not to ask the final two questions during the debate since I was more than able to make my point elsewhere within the debate.
I will ask them here:
YP to KJ: KJammer, what will you do with the points that were well made against your theology? Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.
YP to KJ: KJammer, will you repent and choose the correct Savior and follow the correct path to eternal life?
My hope in this debate has been to show my opponent as well as the casual reader the weakness of the Oneness theology. I have clearly done that.
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Post by kjammer on Nov 14, 2007 23:30:45 GMT -5
I would like to thank Yodas_Prodigy for a very nice and civil debate. Not only was this a fair and civil debate with no name calling or disrespecting words from either side, it was a debate that I believe I made a new friend because of. Now for my closing statements.
I believe that I have proved that the tongues in Acts 2 is different than those in 1 corinthians.Yodas thinks I missed the whole point of Pauls letter to the corinthians. He has the right to believe what he wants. I also have the right to believe what I want, and I believe he is wrong. I chose not to answer some of his questions because I do not think that the church fathers are trinitarians and I do not believe trinitarian theologians, therefor it is useless for me to answer them kinds of questions. I could answered with church fathers who are oneness and oneness theologians but he is like me, he would deny everything about oneness. Evidence of the Baptism of the holy ghost will always be tongues, it was tongues in the beginning and it is still tongues now. YP has asked me two more questions that I will answer.
YP to KJ: KJammer, what will you do with the points that were well made against your theology? Your eternal destiny hangs in the balance. There were no points made against my theology. You cannot have good points against the truth. My eternal destiny is secured with the one and true Almighty God Jesus.
YP to KJ: KJammer, will you repent and choose the correct Savior and follow the correct path to eternal life?
I repent daily and my savior is Jesus Christ and as long as my focus stays on him then I am on the right path.
I pray that you will come to the truth and worship the one true God Jesus. Thanks for a fun time. Friends forever, KJAMMER.
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